Ayodele: ...something that we're able to fix.

Bridget: Sorry.

Ayodele: You're good, but yes.

Ayodele: So that's me. Right now I am working on a book called Uncovering Bias and Machine Learning where I dive super deep into this as well as all of the ways we can use algorithms to try and fix it.

Bridget: I love it. So I would love to get started. I know that you talked about... you kind of came from a non traditional background. I watch your videos, which I am obsessed with. You make great videos under the name Data Science Bae, which, of course I love, but I would love if you could take us through sort of how you got to what you're doing. I know that you worked in film for a while. You had a real interesting perspective coming to tech from a non traditional background. How did how did you take me through it?

Ayodele: Yeah, I have to start with not really knowing what I wanted to do when I went off to college. I was undecided my first year, and I went through majors pretty quickly, I tried journalism. I tried film, and actually got my associates degree in film. But when I was starting to look for jobs, I was like, you know, I'm not sure about these 16 hour days and, um, the salary that they were wanted for people working in films.

Ayodele: So I was like, I've always kind of enjoyed technology. I took one coding course in high school, and I kind of up and changed my major to computer science. This was kind of my first real introduction to tech. It was really difficult because my first few classes not only were they not easy, I had fairly, like, openly sexist professors. My very first computer science course, it was myself and another girl, and the very first thing the professor says he walks in on the first day is: Hey, guys, I see there's two girls in here. Hopefully, you guys don't fail this semester. I'm Dr whatever, and just kind of goes on like nothing happened.

Bridget: Off to a bad start already.

Ayodele: Bad start. Bad start.

Ayodele: And I already had a lot of fears about being the only black person in the classroom, being one of two women in the classroom and coming from a place of insecurity about what I knew and not really being extremely strong in math. Like I was in a remedial math from middle school through college. Like there was no... I am not a math whiz or wonder kid in anyway. So I hope that lets people who are interested in data science feel a little better. But I was CS major for two years, and I really didn't like the courses. I felt like I wasn't learning how to code or build things well, and this was only maybe 2010. But I was learning, like, C++ and doing coding tests on paper. So I was like: I don't know if I want to be an engineer.

Ayodele: So I actually ended up transferring schools. I finished my degree in communications. I was able to transfer over kind of credits. And I actually started working in marketing and working at a little marketing agencies before landing a job doing basically data analysis of social media and enact data for a startup. So this kind of exposed me to the Silicon Valley style VC startups. The really fast paced kind of environments.

Ayodele: And after doing that for a couple years going... working at a couple different startups, data science started to become this popular field. And I figured if I'm already doing a lot of data analysis work, I'll just go get my degree in this, And so I actually went back to school. But it was really difficult when I graduated, because if you looked at my prior job titles, you'd see things like social media specialist and social or data analyst. And so many jobs and companies just did not take me seriously because they were like: How did you go from communications and digital media to understanding things like A B testing and difficult math concepts? So there was a lot of doubt that I really knew what I was talking about despite having kind of a degree on paper.

Bridget: Well, that's the thing that I love about your work is that you are very clear that your... the perspective that you bring in someone who has a nontraditional tech background is not, is not a flaw is actually a good thing. And so I wonder has this has occupying the space allowed you to bring a different perspective to the tech industry. Sort of, you know, I see you with someone who really is comfortable critiquing tech biases, critiquing what it's like for black women in these spaces how tech is used to harm our communities. I see you as someone who is very comfortable and vocal speaking up about this. Do you think your background coming to tech non traditionally has helped you in that regard?

Ayodele: Absolutely. I think I have a lot less. Even when I first started, I didn't really come into tech with kind of the big, wide eyes and really putting a lot of these organizations on this kind of pedestal. I had already known that there were flaws. So, as part of my digital media degree which, oddly enough, got so critiqued by interviewers.

Ayodele: But I wrote a I want to say 18 page paper in my mass media law class on how Facebook violated so many privacy laws. And this was 2013. So I didn't come in really with the idea that these organizations were infallible or that they never built things that broke and that plus coming from a background where I'm in some ways taught how to communicate, taught how to be persuasive and try to get my point across. I do think it was a lot easier for me to come in and translate some of the tech speak to people who have a non traditional background or don't have a really in depth tech background. So I definitely think I've I've used it as my superpower, for sure.

Bridget: I love it. Your superpower. So, you know, we started this conversation talking about sort of this kind of what I call on the show a lot this sort of hostility toward outside voices that I feel sometimes can be at the heart of tech. And oftentimes that that is as it pertains to black women, right? It's like it's perceived understanding that tech space is that if you're a black woman, that you somehow got here by mistake or pushed your way in, and that it's certainly not a meaningful centering of our perspective. Our our voices and what we bring. Is this hostility is something that you have seen in your in your work?

Ayodele: Unfortunately, yes. So I think in a lot of ways overall, I'm lucky and that I've worked in smaller organizations where they're the things I have not dealt with are PIPs Performance Improvement Plan) or like improvement plans where you're kind of sat down and put on a track to get better.

Ayodele: But, the things I have experienced, I would say, are just general doubt, and a lot of times I kind of always put the blame on that because I had a non traditional background and not wanting to see that, race probably played into that for a lot of people, I think, unfortunately, for me, it's been more microaggressions than really obvious kind of broad strokes of this misogyny are or it's been, unfortunately, really subtle, things where you're just not paid the same amount or you are not considered for the same kind of opportunities.

Ayodele: But unfortunately, yes, I think it's difficult to fix because we then have to place the people in power with the responsibility of prioritizing who is important, the people who are vulnerable and marginalized, or the people who have power and who contribute to these kind of toxic environments.

Bridget: Definitely. So I mean, it's you know, when I was putting together my questions for this conversation, it's difficult to have this conversation and not be like: Okay, so what should we do? But what's tough is that, you know, we did not set up white supremacy, right? Like we did not. This is not a This is not a system that we ourselves set up, and it almost feels disingenuous to be like: Well, what could be done to, you know, dismantle this system that oppresses us so much like. But I guess I wonder if there are... if there was someone listening, who was a decision maker or someone with power or someone who could make real change, what would you recommend that they do to just sort of, like, make things less hostile today? Like it will be one or two steps that you can say like: That's what I would do. That's what I would recommend that someone with power who can make real change.

Ayodele: Yeah, I would say the first step is really being able to identify the people who, regardless of their other contributions and their intellect are contributing to this hostile environment and being able to sit down, have an understanding and have a very difficult and honest conversation about how their biases seep into their work. How that seeps into how they manage their employees, and essentially put them on a either action plan or decide how they leave an organization. We have to understand that we are so far past just awareness kind of being enough.

Ayodele: We have, as a tech industry in general, basically continued this cycle of harm for decades. So while no, there's not much we can really do to go back five years and rewind and change decisions, we have to understand that this is that critical, this is that apex. We either make this decision to get rid of people who contribute to this in the workplace or go forward with an understanding that we will never actually get to the tech equity utopia that we want.

Bridget: Yeah, I think that's such a good point. You said that you know awareness is not enough, and I often think like awareness is definitely not enough. But also, visibility is not enough because, you know, there are so many situations where, you know, tech companies or platforms will hire will make a hire a high profile hire. Like I'm thinking of folks like Timnet Gebru at Google and Folks like Ifeoma Ozoma at Pinterest. You know these people who there... You know, you are seeing their sort of fruits of their labor in magazines and press pieces and in good PR, and they have a lot of visibility. And for the longest time, I thought that, you know, if I was visible and if I was at the table, then that was good, right? but like but like that would protect me. But visibility and awareness doesn't protect us. You know, that didn't protect either of those two women from really having terrible experiences in their workplace like publicly terrible experiences.

Bridget: And so I think, I do think I wish we could get to a place where just making a hire we understood that that's great, but it's definitely not enough. We need to go so much further and like, you know, it's one thing to have a seat at the table, but do you feel like you can speak? When you speak do people, listen? Right, like it goes so much further than that.

Ayodele: I think you hit the nail on the head. It's It's almost this radical transparency that we're missing. We see the fruits of their labor and their papers and in all of their work. But we don't see how they are being treated by management. How they, unfortunately, aren't really playing on the same field as far as what rules apply to them and what rules apply to others, especially when you look at Google and their past.

Ayodele: Unfortunately, lawsuits, the things that the kinds of settlements that they've made for people who unfortunately created incredibly toxic environments like Andy Rubin are nothing in comparison. Or they're at least compensated when they leave and recognized for their contributions, regardless of unfortunately, the consequences of their own actions versus those trying to use technology to actually make things better and to transparently communicate with their team, they end up being punished.

Bridget: Yeah, that is, that is a tale as old as time and honestly, it's a story that I'm sick of. Part of me... it's not... when I read reports and studies that are talking about the droves of black women who leave the tech industry. It's... It is not surprising to me, because what else do you expect, right? Like, who wants to work somewhere where this is going to be, you know, like: Oh, yeah, you are going to have to put up with a, you know, in addition to your job, put up with a whole host of fucked up racist BS, and when you talk about it, you'll be seen as the bad actor, right? Like it's one of those things where it's like I don't blame anybody who, after a while, just sort of checks out. But that's exactly the problem is like if if people don't...

Bridget: If black women don't feel centered and heard and like their wellness is protected in these spaces, not only does it fail these women, but it fails all of us, you know, non inclusive teams make tech that go on to harm communities. And only if maybe if there had been somebody who brought a different perspective, that thing, those things wouldn't happen. And so it really I see that I see it as this vicious cycle that we will only ever break until there was some kind of meaningful change to keep these teams like inclusive, and not just inclusive where it's like you deal with bullshit every day until you break and then, you know, leave, but inclusive where it's like it feels good to show up. You feel like you are centered and heard and all of that like. It sounds like a tall order, but I feel that's what we need.

Ayodele: Absolutely. And you mentioned something that was so important not just having someone who has a different perspective on the team to bring up a potential issue, but actually listening when they do. There are organizations that have these people on these teams and then these people are incredibly disappointed and feel, you know, not heard when they kind of push forward with the project anyway, or organizations will go and work with contractors or consultants to do this exact kind of work, and then they get feedback, especially when it comes to algorithmic problems of okay, maybe you abandon this project, maybe you go down a different route and they ignore it and do the same thing anyway.

Ayodele: So until we see, I think, on the other side of things, regulation that, actually is meaningful. That requires these companies to pay fines that are large enough to actually hurt them as an organization, we are not going to see, unfortunately, black voices really get listened to. I think that's the other half of the coin is that when we are there, if we're not protected and listened to, we're still not able to have this impact and they can just kind of check off the diversity aspect, when they bring on someone new, but not really work to both retain that person, or have them give legitimate input or have them in leadership roles. I think the biggest issue for so many organizations is they want to perform and have people look at their diversity numbers. But when you kind of dig in deep to technical roles to leadership positions, you don't see the kind of growth that they are really advertising. So making sure that it's not just about getting black people in as the lowest paid job in your organization.

Ayodele: Right. And so it is... I mean, I know you know, but it's one of those things where it's like when you see a company that you know isn't doing things the way they maybe should be as it pertains to doing right by their black employees when they post their black square on Instagram) right when they, when they, like, turn their logo to black. It was like: Oh, well, that's great and all, but wait a minute. Is that something that you've seen?

Ayodele: Absolutely, I think even very, very recently, a couple things from Google There they are trying to educate 100, 000 black women in digital skills, or they have created these funds. However, they don't look internally and say: Maybe we shouldn't also treat them the same way. It's unfortunately, for orgs like Google it's not a one off case. It is not an outlier. This is... This is systemic and we can assume only because it's happened to the people who are very front facing and are getting covered in magazines.

Ayodele: When we're talking about the average employee that this has happened to that, their research isn't consistently being published by Wired and really big news outlets. What's going on there where we can't assume that this has only happened to one or two people unfortunately.

Bridget: Absolutely. I think that's a really good point that we need to also remember, like the high profile people versus just your everyday person. I want to have the conversation about everyone. And so it's like if you have the person that's like, their pieces are getting put in Wired and all of that, like also thinking through what it looks like, what the experience is like for everybody. I think that's a really good point. You know, this work can be a lot. And I guess my question for you is, since we're talking about wellness, like, how have you found ways to carve out spaces to protect your peace in this work and protect your sense of self and just not like, like, how have you figured it out?

Ayodele: Yeah, I think the first step was, believe it or not, awareness that this is something I need to be doing being taking care of myself only makes my work better. And I think obviously we've been dealing with a pandemic over the last year, dealing with, a lot of the more public racial conversations from this last summer. I have realized I need to take a lot more steps, so that was kind of step one is being able to accept that and let go of all of the stigmas I personally had about that.

Ayodele: The other steps for me have been therapy, being able to talk about these issues that impact me personally, in that so much of my work, I feel like I have to justify my existence or justify and try and humanize myself. And that does take a toll on you mentally. The other parts for me have been really setting aside time to not work, especially with the pandemic. It has been easy to go 12 to 14 hours and not recognize that I'm spending so much time exerting this mental energy and not really being able to be refilled or re fueled, as well as hobbies, because the internet suggested I should get a hobby.

Bridget: Well, yeah. What makes you... I love the word refilled. What makes you feel refilled?

Ayodele: For me it's a lot of creative work. I have to spend time, not looking at a screen, not thinking about algorithmic possibilities. So I have gotten into sewing and into resin crafts and into a lot of things where I can kind of see the fruits of my labor, especially because book writing and a lot of my other work feels really long term. So it feels like it's a marathon for no pay off at the moment. So having those like quick and little crafts have been really helpful.

Bridget: Yeah, that's that is true for me, too. And it's one... It's one of those frustrations where I am so lucky to be in a place where I can do that, right? Like not everybody has the privilege to be like: Oh, I'm taking a week off. I'm taking a week off next week and I'm going to the Adirondacks next to go hiking. And I remember thinking, If I don't get out on that mountain, I might explode. Like I got to the point where, like and it's like: What if I couldn't do that? You know, there are so many people out there who aren't in situations where that is possible for them or they don't, you know, we love to talk about like: Oh, take a break from screen time, but that being able to step away from your screen for a while is a privilege. And I think... I wish so much that our conversations about wellness and self care didn't have to feel so tethered to sort of this, you know, capitalistic system where some people get it and some people are allowed to do that, and some people are not. It just can really be frustrating.

Ayodele: Absolutely, I think, especially because there are so many other unfortunately recent tools that I've recently learned are abusing the data that essentially we give them. If you look at these alternative forms of therapy or therapy apps, so many of them don't have any promises for confidentiality. We shouldn't have this tier where if you work at a certain kind of company or if you're at a certain salary, you're able to go take your time off and recharge and refuel when so many people don't and I... it's difficult because I've been in that situation where I have been unable to get that time away or I've been unable to, I've been unable to not leave the screen and have kind of been tethered to work because of we live in a capitalist system that requires any time away We take is only granted to us after we've given them a certain amount of work or after we've put in a certain amount of effort. There is... I think it's a huge argument for a universal... universal basic income. And that we're human beings and we're dealing in a... dealing with a ridiculously tough time on top of trying to do our day jobs, on top of trying to push for racial and gender equity. It shouldn't be tied at all to really our work.

Bridget: Yeah. Do you... Do you, by any chance, follow The Nap Ministry?

Ayodele: I don't!

Bridget: Well the nap ministry... it is amazing. Follow The Nap Ministry on Instagram. Basically, it is this idea that naps rest can be a form of reparations, right? That, like our ancestors, were not granted the you know, the freedom to rest when they wanted and to dream when they want it. And you know, you need to... you need to be able to rest and dream to recharge and like bring your best creative self to your life and so by... Oh, yeah. Rosalind says that they love Nap Ministry shout out to Rosalind.

Bridget: It is fascinating, and I think it's very true, right that like, when you nap and when you rest, it really can be a radical reclaiming and kind of a way of subverting this capitalistic system that we're in that says like: Oh, you only you only deserve a nap If you do X, Y and Z work. It's like, no, I'm a person. People need to rest. And you know what? My ancestors were not granted the benefit of rest. So me curling up and taking a nap in the middle of the day in a kind of way, is their wildest dreams, right? And they're probably cheering me on. And...

Ayodele: I love that so much.

Bridget: Yes, nap!

Ayodele: My gosh, I love that so much. And I already love naps. And now I won't feel bad.

Bridget: You know, for anyone listening, do not feel bad for taking a nap. We could have just done this session where it's like we're going to take a collective nap. This is how we're doing it. Thank you for putting in The Nap Ministry information. I appreciate it. So now I want to hear from others. Uh, this is gonna be a little bit of an experiment. I don't really facilitate zoom calls very often. I am going to put a couple of starting conversations in the chat, and I would love to break out into groups. As I said earlier, I would love if you could end this session with... I feel like I've come to conferences and we talk a lot and it's great. And then I leave and I'm like: Oh, all of that just left my head immediately. I have no concrete take away.

Bridget: So this is my attempt to try to mitigate that. I'm going to break us up into groups using the zoom breakout functionality, which I definitely know how to use. And I will put three kind of like, conversation starters, questions, ideas in the chat. And so in your small groups, you can discuss anything that comes up for you. But, you know, I would love it if folks could come up with some concrete takeaways of how you will either a carve out time to protect your sense of self. Or if you're an ally or if you, you know, feel like you're doing that already. How can you create the conditions for somebody else on your team to really make that space for themselves? That makes sense? If folks have questions you can put them in the chat. All right, so I'm gonna drop the questions in the chat, and then I'm going to break us up into small groups, and it's going to work perfectly. I can already feel it.

Bridget: Hello, everyone. We are coming back to our large group. Looks like most of the people came back, I think. Right?

Participant: I think they're still 10 other people to return.

Bridget: OK how do I...

Participant: I don't know if we lost every one. Oh, wait. Now...

Bridget: There we go. All right. I was like: Oh, they all left. It would be fine if that was the case, but I was a little like about to be on my feelings about it a little bit. Okay. Welcome back, everyone. I hope that was an interesting conversation. I definitely wanted to create some space for folks to talk. In our group, I know that Roslyn had a really interesting perspective, and Roslyn I would love to invite you to share what you what came up for you in your small group with the rest of the crew here?

Participant: Sure. We were talking about the first question, you know, about kind of recognizing, experiencing hostility in the workplace. And, you know, I said I expressed that, you know, my experience at Mozilla. I joined the Mozilla Tech and Society Fellowship program in September last year, and so my experience has been great. But then I also nuanced it by recognizing that my experience of hostility in that context may be quite different because of my contact, my lived reality as an African surrounded by largely black people in a country in which our discourse around race is quite different.

Participant: So it also kind of has an impact on how we perceive how we perceive or how we experience these things. Because I think the North American context, especially because of all the racial, like the history around race, and not just North American, let's say North American, European, other side of the equator. Conversations around race have been largely because of the slow... the slowness to kind of deal with the repercussions, but still kind of forcing people to live within the backlash of that history. Whilst we have... Our racial history is pinned... underpinned by our experience of colonialism. But then once the colonialists left and they didn't really leave, but then once the colonialists left, you know, it was perceived of okay, like, you know, the race thing is over. We just have ourselves. And so how... I question within myself whether I would... now that I work in a largely North American based organization or institution, whether I would be able to recognize hostility or if I would just, you know, come away from a meeting in which there is some microaggression and think: Oh, that was an odd meeting or think nothing of it, you know? So, I was just kind of sharing that kind of, you know, that take. I'm based in Kenya, Nairobi. Which was why.

Bridget: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think it was an interesting perspective. So I really appreciate you sharing. Yeah Tina, I agree. And also, I should have said this earlier. Thanks for using the chat. Feel free to chime in if you have questions or things you want to add. Thank you for using that. And thank you, Rosalyn, for sharing. Ayodele, do you wanna respond or what came up in your small groups?

Ayodele: Yes. So, we talked about kind of all of it. How, you know, one of us mentioned being in the in the UK It's a little bit different. Just kind of spotting those hostilities. But one of the things that I wanted, it just kind of surfaces. How I really viewed that last question. So, what's something, concrete, really, you know, I'm framing this as What's something that I can go tell my manager? Or have a conversation with C suite executives in my org that would make the workplace better? And I think because of where I worked in my job titles, this for me is surrounding products and how we develop products. I would say to them, one we need to include people that aren't necessarily our users.

Ayodele: So if you are making a high end fashion app, you should still be talking to people who don't buy high end fashion. In that kind of way, we are actually able to get some input from people that are not within our echo chambers. And I hate to say that, but that comes from the from the research that 75% of white people have completely white networks. So when they're reaching out to friends, they're reaching out to past colleagues or, you know, past classmates, they're most likely going to be getting feedback that is very similar to the feedback they have. And unfortunately, kind of feeds this feedback loop, and we're developing products.

Ayodele: So, in product development, make sure to include people that you don't think about, that you don't build personas for, especially when you know you're at Google or something. And it impacts people regardless of if you think they're your core user. But I would also love to hear if anyone else from the group wanted to bring up something and just kind of share with the rest of us.

Participant: I was something I was, you know, in framing it as it were, a question for, you know, a manager, something that I've seen work well, and it's worked well with me. I don't like speaking, for instance public speaking. But something that I asked my manager to do is help share her platform with me. Right. So whether that's, yeah, definitely not my public speaking event, but publishing articles together or submitting with, you know, my name attached to it because I did help make it... helps raise, like, you know, the confidence, my confidence, but also gives me the credibility in the industry. Um, that I wouldn't have been afforded otherwise. And so it's an ask that I've made and has worked. Worked well. Co author, put my name against it. It feels less scary than getting up on stage to an audience.

Bridget: I love that. I also believe it or not hate public speaking, but you sound great. And I think it's... I think it's a good reminder that things can look different than how you might think right? Like sharing the platform is not necessarily you getting up on stage. It's you getting... you know, being properly cited because we know there's power in that properly cited for your work. Like there is power in that as well. So I love what you've shared, so thank you for sharing it. But I also just love that, you know, getting what you need. Looks different for everybody. I really like that a lot.

Bridget: Thank you for sharing. Does anyone else want to share what they talked about or any perspectives that they have come up for them in this session?

Participant: So I can share my experience. I'm a data scientist based in the Netherlands. I work in the pharmaceutical industry, and I am like the only female and biracial data scientist in my company. And they have always been lots of times that whenever my supervisor puts my name down for a conference or for interview or whatever, there's always a kind of like, let's introduce our token data scientist who happens to be female biracial, right, like whenever I get introduced that way, I feel somewhat undermined because I'm like, I don't know if I'm just here for representation or actually, because you enjoy the quality of my work. Yeah, it feels very like affirmative action. Here. So I was just wondering if anyone else also feels the same. And how do they deal with these instances?

Ayodele: That's a hard yes for me. I... Yeah, I have been in a lot of organizations, and it's easy to say, Oh, look, you are our most visibly marginalized person, go and represent us, and then with the hopes that it makes us as an organization look overall better. And I think it's hard because it's never really clear if it's because of your work, at least sometimes when speaking to managers and people who are organizing events, I think the way that I've dealt with it in the past, truly I work with an accountability coach who honestly tells me to check myself and have a look at the positive things that people are saying in the feedback about my work. I am at this level in my career, and I am still insecure about. Do they want me to talk just because they want to have a black woman on the screen? Or do they want me because I do good work?

Ayodele: And I have to remind myself that regardless of how they think, and regardless of if it is because they want diversity, I'm still great at what I do. And it's difficult when you maybe have a non traditional background or you are visibly marginalized and it seems as if you have sometimes more opportunities. But what I would say is also charge more. Don't don't do these things for free and then take their money like if they if they want that PR, get something out of it for yourself.

Bridget: My God, I'm so glad you said that. That's so true, right? And that is sort of the trip of being underrepresented people in these spaces, right? Like I am, I have a lot of integrity. I bring a lot of integrity to my work. But if I'm going to be... you know when you're being used in this way, if I'm going to be used, there is a price in a tie right, and I think that, like, if that's how you feel, get your coin right, like don't feel any... don't like, don't feel any shame in playing the game the way that it's going to work out well for yourself.

Bridget: And I think that's such a good point. I just want to underline, underline, underline it. We all have integrity. We all have values. But if you know these people are gonna, like, be using you in this way, and we all feel you feel it in your gut when you are when you are being used in this way, at least get like get your bottom line for it, like have a have a cost in your head and then charge tax and then charge extra right because I feel like that is necessary to... I mean, it's almost like a kind of a tiny way of tip... of like trying to tip the scales a little bit. So I completely agree. I'm so glad you brought that up. A tiny a tiny.

Ayodele: Little baby reparations. I mean, when it's when it's black History month, I charge double. When it's women's History month, I charge double like we, and it's funny, but I'm like we are still doing extra work and we have to recognize like, especially if they're having you talk about race, talk about gender, talk about hard topics. Charge more because it is still emotional labor that you're putting in on. You are having to rehash every experience and talk about that. Make sure that, at the very least, you're well compensated for it.

Participant: At a practical level and maybe this can move to a Slack conversation. But I would really love to talk like tactically. Literally how do you ask for more money? Is it a line item? Is it just like a like an increased day rate? I would love to have this conversation about, you know, asking.

Ayodele: I can drop a couple of tips that I've used really quick. First is have either a page on your website where you have, like the I've just used the logos of companies I've spoken at before and talks I've done before. You can specifically say, let's say if they come to you in a DM, here's my rate for the next x amount of time. Or what I've also noticed works is having even just an online form where they can go and request, like they would request a company for a demo. Hey, I want you for this talk, put in your information, make them fill out a budget or list. These are my... I have on my website. This is a 30 minute talk, this is a one hour talk. Everyone knew that I have not already done work for is going to be at these rates. And I think it's hard because we're not really also taught to value ourselves this way. But this is very recent if you aren't following me on Twitter, but I've actually asked a lot of my white male counterparts to post how much they charge per hour, post how much they charged for events. And there's a lot of really good data there to understand if this is how... I mean, there's some phenomenally talented white men who charged 500 an hour. We have to take that into consideration and, you know, make sure we're not undervaluing ourselves either.

Bridget: Definitely. So we're going to have to stop soon. But I wanted to share one quick tip and then I swear I'll end, I swear. Which is that even for... so when I was first starting out, I would often be like, I'm not gonna speak for free anymore. And what I actually found out is even if places that cannot... lets say they cannot pay you, I don't think that anybody should be able to pay you. But if they say they cannot, there can still be something they can give to you. And I want spoke at a conference at a very well known Ivy League University, and they were look, we can't pay you. And I said, Okay, well, can you... can I get five free slots for, you know, for some of my like, underrepresented folks who want to come and they did that.

Bridget: And so, like, they should have paid me. But there can be a workaround like, figure out what it might be where it's like, Okay, if I want to donate my time, what can I get that's not necessarily material, but it's still gonna like, make this worth it? But you shouldn't be doing anything any kind of labor without getting something even if it's not, you know, a monetary compensation. So I really appreciate all of you in the space today. I'm so thrilled and grateful that we were able to hold this space. We do have to end, but we can continue this conversation in the AI Wellness Lounge spatial chat, which the link to that is in the in the zoom chat.

Bridget: I want to thank all of you for coming. I want to thank you Ayodele for being such a wonderful co- facilitator and sharing yourself so beautifully. And I want to thank you for being such a great Wrangler and also being being part of the conversation. Please keep in touch Ayodele. Where can folks keep up with all the amazing work that you're doing?

Ayodele: Yes, I am most active on Twitter at datascibae. You can find links to my website from there and a lot of other stuff I've got going on.

Bridget: Awesome. And you can keep up with me on my podcast. I heart radio called. There are no girls on the internet or follow me on Twitter BridgetMarie. And thanks so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.

Participant: Thank you.

Participant: Thank you.

Participant: Thank you. .